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Children used for religion

Abstract:
Are you saved? If you're part of the 65 percent of Americans who aren't fundamentalist Christian, then the answer is a resounding "no" - at least according to fundamentalist Christians. But they're poised to reshape the nation's religious landscape, and children are becoming their most powerful force....

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Ananta Androscoggin

posted 2/15/07 @ 7:04 AM CST

Wasn't it a Medieval pope or the one who founded the Jesuits (vague recollection) who stated something to the effect of: "Give me a child before he is seven, and I will own his mind forevermore."

This abuse of children is not a new phenomena. It is also a large part of why these fundamentalist Dominators are screaming so loudly to be allowed to continue to have free access to the public schools in order to indoctrinate as many [i]other people's kids[/i] as possible into their influence. I have come to suspect that the main reason for the fundamentalists and evangelicals recent increase in screaming is that as more American citizens begin to stand up for their own rights, these Christianists are beginning to lose the special rights of exclusive access to and influence over all aspects of our governments.

I for one am very tired of having their tired old Death Cult shoved down my throat every time I turn around.
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Megan Salazar

posted 2/15/07 @ 7:21 PM CST

Excuse me, we just want the truth out, not shove it down your throat for that I'm sorry, but coming form a young person, I can say I disagree with what you said.
Originally posted by

Ananta Androscoggin

 Wasn't it a Medieval pope or the one who founded the Jesuits (vague recollection) who stated something to the effect of: "Give me a child before he is seven, and I will own his mind forevermore."

This abuse of children is not a new phenomena. It is also a large part of why these fundamentalist Dominators are screaming so loudly to be allowed to continue to have free access to the public schools in order to indoctrinate as many [i]other people's kids[/i] as possible into their influence. I have come to suspect that the main reason for the fundamentalists and evangelicals recent increase in screaming is that as more American citizens begin to stand up for their own rights, these Christianists are beginning to lose the special rights of exclusive access to and influence over all aspects of our governments.

I for one am very tired of having their tired old Death Cult shoved down my throat every time I turn around.
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Kim Carrell

posted 2/15/07 @ 7:26 AM CST

Bravo to Ms. Lind for having the courage to speak her mind as well as share her Fundamentalist experience. The sheer arrogance of anyone who can say "Excuse me. but we have the truth" is only matched by their blind stupidity given what has been known for centuries about the "sacrificed savior" beliefs that pre-dated and influenced Christianity, the repression of "heretical" Gospels, etc.
I won't even start on their willingess (if not eagerness) to discount and insult any other belief system. Thank you Ms. Lind - I hope your article serves to pry open a few very closed minds.
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Carolyn niMorrison

posted 2/15/07 @ 7:27 AM CST

What a disgrace to religion and parenting.I feel assured that a new wave of dissillusioned young people will come from this eventually, looking for reason and sanity within communities that allow children to be children, not mindless drones for their "Christian" empire. Let your children decide for themselves; brainwashing is child abuse.
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Enanidah

posted 2/15/07 @ 9:10 AM CST

Every parent involved with this should be investigated for child abuse. Brainwashing such young children with rampant hysteria is just evil. Let them make their own decision when they are old enough to properly understand. I'm not Christian myself, but I can't see why any Christian can't trust God/Jesus to inspire faith without these kind of tactics.
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noah

posted 2/15/07 @ 9:39 AM CST

Children are like sponges. While a parent could be very very intentional about "brainwashing" their child, it is impossible for that child to grow up with completely neutral viewpoints- without any bias as they make their own decisions.

Jen, I'd love to see a rewrite of your article with "the media" being substituted for "fundamentalist Christians." This is just one example. If "brainwashing" is child abuse, then a large portion of the US population is guilty.
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Eileen

posted 2/15/07 @ 1:06 PM CST

Child abuse? Please. That's taking it a little far. In fact, I think this whole editorial goes a little too far.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian, but to say that they are "stealing souls" is far too vicious of an image. It saddens me to see that the public's perception of Christianity is based on fundamentalist radicals, but at the same time, for me or anyone else to condemn all of them without a second thought is much too harsh and unloving, as this entire editorial seems to be.
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Gryph

posted 2/18/07 @ 4:14 PM CST

Originally posted by

Eileen

 Child abuse? Please. That's taking it a little far. In fact, I think this whole editorial goes a little too far.

* I personally don't think so. When you break anyone down as much as they were doing to the children, you then have a person that will say anything to please the "person in charge" no matter who they are.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian, but to say that they are "stealing souls" is far too vicious of an image. It saddens me to see that the public's perception of Christianity is based on fundamentalist radicals, but at the same time, for me or anyone else to condemn all of them without a second thought is much too harsh and unloving, as this entire editorial seems to be.


Ah, but dear lady they condemn all of us who don't follow their path just as harshly if not worse. On top of it are so hypicriticle for example the leader of the one group who got outed by his call boy lover. Have you ever listened to all the garbage he spouted?
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Kathryn Ellis

posted 2/15/07 @ 2:02 PM CST

Yes, this is child abuse. The way they reduce defenseless children to crying, screaming, convulsing masses is downright sinister. And then they incite these children to go out and "crusade" against the "forces of the devil." What they're really doing is sending drones out into the populace to persecute people who don't believe the way they do. And they do it in the guise of "saving souls."
Horse-apples!
Brava to Ms. Lind for her enlightened article!
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Sean McCormick

posted 2/15/07 @ 2:56 PM CST

It is true, regrettably, that there are Christians who act superior to the 'unsaved.' But you can't burn down the entire orchard because of a few bad apples. Real Biblical Christianity teaches to love our neighbor as ourselves and to love God with all we've got. To paint all believers as snake-handling cultist rednecks is simply untrue, and frankly, rather crass.
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Michele Walden

posted 2/15/07 @ 3:51 PM CST

Thank you for this article! I was raised fundamentalist, pentacostal christian. I am now being prayed for on a regular basis by most of my family because I have (thankfuly) recovered from my upbringing. One of the key things that disturbed me about chrisianity as a doctrine was that no one is ever an adult of god...
Aside from having a problem with any group that uses fear and guilt as their main motivators
i could not get past the idea that I was expected to check my brain at the door and remain a "child of god" forever. Starting wih children is one easy way to ensure this. The problem being though that at 5 or 7 or even in your teens most children are incapable as well as highly discouraged from really thinking out what they believe. Ofentimes these young converts have real trouble when the real world with all of it's problems hits and they discover that their faith - really their parents faith - has no more foundation than "it's what I was told is true". Then it all comes tumbling down and good luck getting the tough questions answered. Remember, if you have to know why, it's not faith.
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Lowell Godfrey

posted 2/15/07 @ 3:55 PM CST

There is a religious war brewing here in the US of A. Those of us who are Pagans and Heathens are always on the look-out for people like these "Good folks" who are creating soldiers for the war. Sorry, but IMO, this is basicly like the Socialist Party of Germany that developed into the NATZIS. When you cannot look past the Bible that is shoved in front of your nose and see that over 70% of the world is NOT Christian....and that this is completely OK.....then.....in my eyes.....you become "Terrorist #1". This reminds me of the JESUS CAMP group that has been all over the news. Scary stuff. I pray for my children and all who will have to fight to defend their right to have FREEDEMOM OF RELIGION. No longer will we stand by and watch as the "Christian Wave" tries to roll over the land.
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Shadowbear

posted 2/15/07 @ 4:12 PM CST

Well, looks like the burning times are coming again. It is a pity that so many people who profess to believe in the Christian version of god have no faith in their own teachings. Apparently their god has no ability to handle things on his own - even though the bible says he can handle his own vengance, and not to worry about the mote in someone's eye until you have taken care of the beam in yours. Personally, I am sure that the creator I believe in can handle it all without any need for me to intervene. I just hope the handling does not turn into a "scrap it all and start over."

One of the other articles discusses religious openness in the workplace - with the fundamentals on the rise, and their belief that anything they do will be forgiven, even murder (yes, a Campus Crusade for Christ person told me that)- you are literally taking your life in your hands letting people you don't know well know your religion if it does not conform.
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Rev. J.R.Leesson Ph.D.

posted 2/15/07 @ 6:26 PM CST

Very well written article.

It is unfortunate that there are so many people so intent on forcing their religious beliefs on others. The entire anti-choice movement is nothing more than fundamentalists trying to force everyone else to behave according to their dictates.

And, of course, the whole stem-cell "debate", along with all the "intelligent design" hogwash is really just a bunch of fundies attempting to determine what kind of medical care we receive and what our children are taught in school.

It is imperative that these people be opposed wherever and whenever they raise their hateful banner.

If Thomas Jefferson and the other Founders knew all this, they would be spinning like lathes in their graves.
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Megan Salazar

posted 2/15/07 @ 7:14 PM CST

I think what you are saying is stupid. I am a 12 year old 7th grader and I am not just any "usable and open" tweener.
I know how to think for myself. because I'm still a young person does not mean I don't have a brain. I'm not a religious zombie, taking in whatever everyone tells me. I am young, but I know what happens to Christians like me around the world. They are being killed for what they believe. I know I can have that courage to be like that with the help from God. We, Christians don't act superior to the "unsaved". We just don't want them in hell, because that is a place God only intended for satan and his demons, not humans that He created in His image. I know it's weird being told off by a junior higher but people need to know the truth.
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Emily P

posted 2/16/07 @ 12:49 PM CST

Just by your statement alone proves you are still quite naive. Just by wanting to "save" people, Christian fundamentalists are acting superior. No religion is the "correct" religion because they are all created by imperfect humans. Thus, anyone who claims her/his religion is the "only correct" religion is, by default, acting superior.
Have you, my dear, or any of your fellow worshipers ever stopped to think just how rude, condescending and annoying your behavior really is? Honestly, if someone came to me on the street and started preaching at me, I'd call the police and have that person arrested for harassment and threatening - no matter how old that person happened to be.
My last point is this: Not everyone believes the way you do, so stop trying to impose your views on everyone else, especially those who have been alive a LOT longer than you have. You are a very presumptuous little girl to try to tell adults what they should and should not believe.

Originally posted by

Megan Salazar

 I think what you are saying is stupid. I am a 12 year old 7th grader and I am not just any "usable and open" tweener.
I know how to think for myself. because I'm still a young person does not mean I don't have a brain. I'm not a religious zombie, taking in whatever everyone tells me. I am young, but I know what happens to Christians like me around the world. They are being killed for what they believe. I know I can have that courage to be like that with the help from God. We, Christians don't act superior to the "unsaved". We just don't want them in hell, because that is a place God only intended for satan and his demons, not humans that He created in His image. I know it's weird being told off by a junior higher but people need to know the truth.
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Gryph

posted 2/18/07 @ 4:24 PM CST

Originally posted by

Megan Salazar

 I think what you are saying is stupid. I am a 12 year old 7th grader and I am not just any "usable and open" tweener.
I know how to think for myself. because I'm still a young person does not mean I don't have a brain. I'm not a religious zombie, taking in whatever everyone tells me. I am young, but I know what happens to Christians like me around the world. They are being killed for what they believe. I know I can have that courage to be like that with the help from God. We, Christians don't act superior to the "unsaved". We just don't want them in hell, because that is a place God only intended for satan and his demons, not humans that He created in His image. I know it's weird being told off by a junior higher but people need to know the truth.


Sorry young lady you are just giving off the same thing I have heard from different fundimentalist christians all my life. Truth is subjective not objective and what is truth for one or a few is not the truth for everyone.
If you read your history then you will know it was the christians who started the War of the Roses, the Crusaides and many more such atrosities. These same christians are the ones who burned witches in Europe and other places.
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alumni jim

posted 2/19/07 @ 12:19 PM CST

Originally posted by

Megan Salazar

 I think what you are saying is stupid. I am a 12 year old 7th grader and I am not just any "usable and open" tweener.
I know how to think for myself. because I'm still a young person does not mean I don't have a brain. I'm not a religious zombie, taking in whatever everyone tells me. I am young, but I know what happens to Christians like me around the world. They are being killed for what they believe. I know I can have that courage to be like that with the help from God. We, Christians don't act superior to the "unsaved". We just don't want them in hell, because that is a place God only intended for satan and his demons, not humans that He created in His image. I know it's weird being told off by a junior higher but people need to know the truth.


Megan, Good for you! Nobody liked Jesus all that much when he was walking around either- but this isn't a popularity contest, so don't let these guys rattle you. You are walking the walk and you should be proud. See you when we get There.

Jim
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hgf7

posted 2/15/07 @ 7:58 PM CST

Well, thank God that you are here to clear up what is so obviously wrong with people and their religious fervor. I wished you had been their during Peter's era and cleared up that crazy cult that was in the upper room. It would have been so much more impacting had they followed our "modern" form of worship by "sitting on a hard pew" and "sketching images of the pastor" (Peter) on some parchment instead of that demonstrative interaction.

The nerve of some people saying that they have the truth and that they want to teach it to their children! I tore out that page in the bible long ago that says you should "train up a child in the way he should go". What rubbish - but I guess that is all they had back then. Now we can rely on school teachers and television to shape the children into what they shall become; besides, with both parents working, who has time anyway? I, like some of the others that have commented, have resolved to allow my children to make up their own minds about most things sex, alcohol, education and religion.

Additionally, how dare those people to believe that there is one truth and they intend to follow it. Aren't there many doors and many paths that lead to heaven?

Are you sure that you are not just a little convicted or even unnerved because they articulate an unmoving and unwavering passion in their belief and your only militant and focused view is to "unsave" those that follow such a doctrine? You are scaring me with your obsessive and compulsive, militant religion that would lead some away from the only experience with God that they have ever had.
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Randy McNoon

posted 2/16/07 @ 11:52 AM CST

Unsophisticated analysis.

I chose to not to go to UW-Eau Claire because I wanted to go where people are allowed to think. Ms. Lind's shallow analysis merely helped reinforce my decision.

What Ms. Lind could try to do is come to UW-Madison where she will find many very intelligent people who take the truth claims of Christianity seriously. While Ms. Lind has written an article showing that promoting Christian belief in children by their parent is a kin to child abuse, Ms. Lind has failed to show that any of the claims are not true. Barring this kind of arguement there is no reason to think that teaching children true-beliefs (one set of which could be Christian truth claim) is in anyway harmful. So Ms. Lind is unsuccessful both as a detractor of Christian belief and as a potential guide for children.

On second thought maybe she should stay in Eau Claire after all...
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Jeremy scott lovin

posted 2/16/07 @ 5:57 PM CST

Dear Goddess and mother of all
Save us from the fasist men/women of right-wing jealous so called god who will never rest until all of us are brainwash, imprisoned, or dead. Save us from reliving the dark ages again and may no child have to live with a false smile on their face and deny their own individuality to simpley to please a mindless cult. May you give all childern imagination, creative skills and the ability to think for themselves Even though our enimies would twist our future into evil. May democracy last forever to keep men/women free. Blessed Be
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Tony

posted 2/16/07 @ 10:45 PM CST

It's ironic that "Fun" is embedded in the word "Fundamentalist"
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Mylhendir

posted 2/17/07 @ 1:52 AM CST

hello all,
I am Asatru/Heathen. Yes I follow the Norse Deities. I want to start off by saying I personally know some great Christians out there. Not all of them are Fundies.
Now, I personally believe everybody should have a spirituality, but to find it on their own. I did. I have a personal problem with Fundies of ANY FAITH AND/OR CREED! There is probably at LEAST one Fundie for each decently sized faith on this planet. For this country, it is simply that the Christian Fundies are a sizeable group. Now the Fundies in this country (and indeed the world, look at the mideast and other areas) are going a bit far. Jesus Camp just frightens me to no end! I would prefer to not have a resurgence of a faith war in this country thank you. IT IS POSSIBLE FOR AT LEAST SOME OF US TO LIVE IN HARMONY!!! I mean...look at the Pagan/Heathen crowd. We are a diverse mix, of multiple religions. In truth, I disagree with some of the Pagan faiths, as they disagree with me. But we find our common ground and try to stick with it (not including Pagan/Heathen Fundies, which exist as well, trust me).
Can't the Fundies of the world just all move to Antartica or something? I suggest everybody look at the Uniterian Universalist approach to life: finding the peaceful common grounds among the major faiths and work together.
As for anybody who tries to "save" me: 1) I don't believe in original sin. 2)Chances are I will just try to ignore you. or 3)I will laugh at you. One more time I note that this applies to ALL Fundies, NOT just the Christian ones. Fanaticism is a pain in my arse the world round.

Hail Odin!!
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Kim Eriksen

posted 2/17/07 @ 4:28 PM CST

Interesting article. In my experience, however, children are not easily brainwashed or manipulated. Ask any elementary school teacher. Children seem to come equipped with a well-developed "crap detector."

Adults, on the other hand, are much more malleable. I'm serious. Our "crap detectors" seem to deteriorate with age. It's rather terrifying to ponder, but I'm convinced this is the case.

Children seem better able to separate fact from fiction than do adults. Adults would seem to present a more attractive recruiting pool for fundamentalists of all stripes, and indeed they do.
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Gryph

posted 2/18/07 @ 4:05 PM CST

Miss Salazar, I have one question for you.
Why do you think your version of truth is the only truth out there?

Megan Salazar
posted 2/15/07 @ 8:21 PM EST
Excuse me, we just want the truth out, not shove it down your throat for that I'm sorry, but coming form a young person, I can say I disagree with what you said.
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alumni jim

posted 2/19/07 @ 12:14 PM CST

Wow,
I thought the non-Christian world was open-minded and all for preserving our "rights". In reading most of these responses, all I could see is that most people are only worried about protecting their own freedom and "screw anyone who thinks differently". I was shocked to see that Ms. Lind would paint all born-again Christian so dimly. We usually see this kind of blanket statement from racists, homophobes, and bigots. To use her un-cool Christian experience as a jumping off point to bash fundamentalist Christians in general was shocking. So we believe that Jesus is our savior and want to spread the good news to others, including our children. What's the problem- I didn't know the free speech police had set strict religious limits on what we can share out loud.
And many of your comments are quite unusual from the standpoint that each one of us "brainwashes" our kids daily in just about every way possible. We are all teaching them the way we think they should live their lives according to our experiences. Whether fundamentalist, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Atheist, etc. we are all blatantly teaching our kids our ways from the day they are cognizant of the world around them. We send them to school where they are brainwashed further about subjects such as evolution, political correctness, and tolerance. Only to discover that they don't view Christianity as something that needs to be tolerated. For some reason the liberal left thinks we need to be protected more from overzealous Christians who espouse intelligent design more than we need to be protected from Islamists who would strap a bomb on themselves in a mall, or fly a jet into a building. We need to tolerate that more than some kid wearing a "what would jesus do?" t-shirt. This country is headed for disaster for that simple reason- no one wants to hear about a guy promoting "loving thy neighbor" and "do unto others" because it all sounds to corny that a death some 2000 years ago could have any relavance to today. But some amoeba turning into a monkey and then a person millions of years ago, now that is totally believable and should be worshipped. God help us all!
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norwegian girl

posted 9/09/07 @ 8:12 AM CST

hello.. I've seen that documentary that you are talking about in the original post here, to be honest I just googled "lakewood park" and the young boy called Levi's name to see if I could find any more info about it or clips from the documentary. I've been reading quickly through the posts here and,..
I have no problem with christians trying to make nonebelievers into believers, in fact I find it a good act. What made me react about this documentary was more how they suddenly, after preaching about god and jesus and the bible, go grab a paper cut out of George Bush and ask all the kids to pray for him! What does George Bush got to do with god and jesus? Nothing!
-one thing is to pass our beliefs on to our kids, but a totally different and much uglier thing, in my opinion, is to mix politics into religious preachings.
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